Roger: 0:02

Talking Trees with Lillian Jad. Welcome to Talking Trees. In this episode, we spotlight two interesting figures in arboriculture and tree biomechanics Lothar Wessoli, a German engineer who developed the SIM and SIA methods to assess tree biomechanics and prevent failures biomechanics and prevent failures. Klaus Mathek, a German scientist renowned for his visual tree assessment, VTA, helping arborists evaluate tree stability visually. Both have dedicated their careers to saving trees and sharing their knowledge through publications, lectures and conferences. Join us as we explore their contributions and lasting impact on arboriculture. Their contributions and lasting impact on arboriculture.

Jad: 0:52

Hey everyone, welcome to another deep dive. Today we're going to get into something that's really at the heart of what you do every day as arborists. That's right, and that's tree biomechanics. Yeah, we're going to explore how these giants that seem so still are actually incredibly dynamic.

Lilly: 1:04

Right.

Jad: 1:05

Constantly responding to forces all around them like wind and gravity, and even just their own growth.

Lilly: 1:11

Yeah, you know, what's really interesting is how crucial understanding these mechanics is for you as an arborist Absolutely. I mean, it really is the basis for so much of what we do when we're assessing tree health and thinking about stability and risk.

Jad: 1:25

It's really that foundation for how we approach trees.

Lilly: 1:28

For sure. And for this deep dive, we're going to dig into a lot of the research that's been done, but particularly we're going to focus on some of the groundbreaking work that came out in the 1990s.

Jad: 1:37

Yeah, Because it feels like before that it was a lot of.

Lilly: 1:40

Yeah, it was a lot of intuition and experience.

Jad: 1:43

Yeah, Gut feeling.

Lilly: 1:44

Exactly.

Jad: 1:45

And then in the 90s, things started to shift.

Lilly: 1:47

Yeah, things became a lot more scientific, and a lot of that is thanks to two figures in particular.

Jad: 1:52

Right Klaus Mathik and Lothar Wesley.

Lilly: 1:54

Yeah, exactly.

Jad: 1:57

And I'm curious, before we even get into the work that they did, what drew these two, with their very different backgrounds, to studying trees?

Lilly: 2:08

Well, that is a really interesting question. You know Mathic. He came from the world of theoretical physics and engineering, and then you have Wesley, who had a background in aerospace engineering.

Jad: 2:18

So you wouldn't think either of those fields would lead somebody to trees. But there they are.

Lilly: 2:22

But I think that's kind of the beauty of science and scientific curiosity right. They saw how complex trees were or all the challenges involved in understanding them, and they were just drawn to figuring out how these incredible organisms actually work.

Jad: 2:36

Absolutely, and their work really did revolutionize the way we look at trees. Yeah, let's start with Mathic. He developed something called visual tree assessment, right, or VTA. Can you break down for us what that is and how it kind of changed the game for arborists?

Lilly: 2:49

Yeah, so VTA visual tree assessment. It was really revolutionary because it emphasized the importance of observation. Okay so really looking at the tree's external form to try to understand what was happening inside, to understand how stress was distributed within the tree.

Jad: 3:07

Okay.

Lilly: 3:07

And also to be able to identify potential weak points just by looking at the shape of the tree.

Jad: 3:13

So it's almost like he gave us this new language to read what the tree was telling us.

Lilly: 3:17

That's a great way to put it, yeah.

Jad: 3:18

Just based on the way that it's growing.

Lilly: 3:20

Exactly. It's like being able to look at a tree and kind of see when it might be vulnerable before anything actually happens. That's incredible, just based on its shape and the way its branches are attached and just the overall form of the tree.

Jad: 3:32

Yeah, and I've heard that Mathic Medic was also really good at explaining these complicated concepts.

Lilly: 3:38

Oh, he was amazing at that.

Jad: 3:39

In ways that anybody could understand.

Lilly: 3:41

Yeah, he really had a knack for making science accessible and engaging, which is so important.

Jad: 3:47

Especially when you're trying to bring these new ideas into a field like arboriculture.

Lilly: 3:51

Exactly. You've got to be able to explain it in a way that people can understand and get excited about.

Jad: 3:56

I've even heard he used cartoons in his writing.

Lilly: 3:58

He did. He did use cartoons. He was a big believer in using visuals and humor to help people understand these sometimes complex ideas.

Jad: 4:08

And his approach clearly resonated, because he actually won the German Environmental Award in 2003.

Lilly: 4:14

He did, yeah, which is a huge testament to the impact that his work had. Yeah absolutely, not just on the scientific community, but on society as a whole.

Jad: 4:21

Now Asali. On the other hand, he took a more quantitative approach.

Lilly: 4:26

Yeah, he did.

Jad: 4:27

He developed the Elasto and Cleno method.

Lilly: 4:29

The Elasto and Cleno method, right or SIM?

Jad: 4:31

Yeah, which uses tools and calculations to assess tree stability.

Lilly: 4:36

Exactly so. It's a much more sort of data-driven approach.

Jad: 4:39

So it's like we've got Mathic, the visual observer, and Wesley, the engineer, with his measuring tool, like two sides of the same coin.

Lilly: 4:46

It is very much like that and Wesley really brought his aerospace engineering background to the study of trees. He was applying principles from building airplanes to understanding how trees stand up.

Jad: 4:59

That's amazing.

Lilly: 5:00

And you know, he went on to do over 10,000 tree assessments across Europe 10,000 assessments. Using his methods, yeah.

Jad: 5:09

That's incredible.

Lilly: 5:09

To inform you know real world decisions about how to care for trees.

Jad: 5:14

Wow. So he really took his research and made it very applicable.

Lilly: 5:17

Yeah, he was all about making sure that the research was actually used to make a difference in the real world.

Jad: 5:23

Which is ultimately what matters most, absolutely, especially for arborists like you For sure, who are out there in the field every day.

Lilly: 5:29

Yeah, exactly.

Jad: 5:30

Making these decisions.

Lilly: 5:36

And it's interesting, you know, because although both Mathik and Wesley really advanced our understanding of tree biomechanics Right, they didn't always see eye to eye Really. Yeah, they had very different personalities.

Jad: 5:42

Okay, sometimes collapsed. It's a little bit of healthy debate in the field.

Lilly: 5:45

Exactly, A little bit of friction. But you know, I think ultimately their different approaches really helped to create a much more well-rounded understanding of tree biomechanics. Absolutely it was a really interesting time for the field.

Jad: 5:58

Yeah.

Lilly: 5:58

Both Mathak and Wesley were doing this groundbreaking work in the 1990s.

Jad: 6:04

Right.

Lilly: 6:04

At a time when our cities were growing and changing so rapidly.

Jad: 6:08

That's a great point, because it's like the need for this deeper understanding of trees came at the exact same time as all these challenges that were making trees more vulnerable.

Lilly: 6:19

Yeah, think about it. More people, more buildings, more pollution, all impacting trees, especially in these urban environments. So it wasn't enough anymore to just rely on those traditional methods of assessment.

Jad: 6:31

Right.

Lilly: 6:32

We needed a more scientific approach to really understand how these stresses were affecting the stability of trees.

Jad: 6:39

Right. And their longevity too, absolutely, because I mean. These trees are expected to live for decades, sometimes even centuries.

Lilly: 6:47

Yeah, exactly. And so, mathak and Wesley, they weren't just working in a vacuum, right? Their research was directly responding to these real world issues that arborists were facing at the time.

Jad: 6:58

And that's, I think, what makes their work so valuable is that they really helped to bridge that gap between the art and the science of arboriculture.

Lilly: 7:07

They did. They provided tools and frameworks that allowed arborists to make more data-driven decisions, so we could move beyond just intuition and experience towards a more evidence-based approach.

Jad: 7:20

And that shift toward a more scientific approach. I mean it's had a huge impact on the field.

Lilly: 7:24

Oh, absolutely.

Jad: 7:25

I mean think about all the tools and techniques we use today as arborists. So much of it stems from that foundational research.

Lilly: 7:32

Absolutely, and the legacy of these two figures is immense. You know, it's not just about VTA or Sim Right. It's about the way they inspired a whole generation of arborists to think differently about trees, to keep asking questions, to understand that there's always more to learn, yeah, and that science can help us find better ways to care for these essential parts of our urban.

Jad: 7:54

It's really amazing to think about how two individuals working in relative isolation could have sparked such a profound change in an entire field.

Lilly: 8:07

It really highlights the power of scientific curiosity and the importance of challenging conventional wisdom. I mean Mathak and Wesley. They weren't afraid to think differently.

Jad: 8:18

Right.

Lilly: 8:18

I mean Mathak and Wesley. They weren't afraid to think differently, and their boldness led to these breakthroughs that we still benefit from today.

Jad: 8:24

And you know, even though they had their disagreements, as you mentioned before, their contrasting approaches ultimately really enriched the field.

Lilly: 8:39

Absolutely.

Jad: 8:39

I mean each one kind of pushed the other one to refine their methods, to think more deeply about the complexities of tree biomechanics. So it's almost like that friction led to progress In a way, yeah, and their work individually and collectively really helped to elevate arboriculture. It did, to a more respected and scientifically grounded profession.

Lilly: 8:52

For sure.

Jad: 8:53

And you know, as our cities continue to grow and the climate changes, yeah. The principles that they pioneered become even more crucial.

Lilly: 9:00

Absolutely, because understanding tree biomechanics isn't just about preserving individual trees Right, it's about ensuring the health and resilience of entire urban forests.

Jad: 9:11

Exactly. So how do we do that? I mean, how do we take these principles of biomechanics and actually use them to make our urban forests more resilient?

Lilly: 9:20

Well, I mean think about it this way Knowing how a tree's structure reacts to wind can help us make better decisions about how we prune to reduce the risk of that tree failing during a big storm. And understanding how root systems develop, that helps us make better decisions about where we plant trees, what kind of soil management practices we need to use, and we can even use biomechanics to select tree species that are more likely to thrive in these really challenging conditions in our cities.

Jad: 9:51

So it's almost like we're using this knowledge to give trees a fighting chance. Yeah exactly In a world that seems to be becoming increasingly hostile to them.

Lilly: 9:59

It's about shifting from a reactive approach to a more proactive approach.

Jad: 10:04

I like that.

Lilly: 10:04

So instead of just waiting for a tree to fail, we can use biomechanics to try to predict potential problems.

Jad: 10:11

Right and get ahead of them.

Lilly: 10:13

And take steps to mitigate those problems before they even arise.

Jad: 10:16

But we're not just tree doctors anymore, we're like tree architects.

Lilly: 10:19

That's a great way to put it.

Jad: 10:20

Designing these urban forests to be strong and adaptable.

Lilly: 10:23

Yeah, designing them to be resilient in the face of all these challenges.

Jad: 10:27

And that's where the work of Mathic and Wesley continues to be so important.

Lilly: 10:31

Absolutely.

Jad: 10:32

Because they gave us that foundation to move beyond just admiring trees to really truly understanding them.

Lilly: 10:38

Right, and to move beyond just admiring trees to really truly understanding them Right, and that's what makes their legacy so powerful.

Jad: 10:42

Yeah, it is amazing to think how much has changed since the 90s it really is but also how much their work continues to shape the field of arboriculture today. This deep dive has been really eye-opening.

Lilly: 10:54

It's been a pleasure.

Jad: 10:55

It's a good reminder that there's always more to learn.

Lilly: 10:57

Yeah.

Jad: 10:58

Even about something as familiar as a tree. Absolutely. And you know, as arborists, you're at the forefront of this work. That's right. You're the ones who are applying these principles, making those decisions that are really impacting the health and the longevity of our urban forests.

Lilly: 11:13

It's a huge responsibility.

Jad: 11:15

It is.

Lilly: 11:15

But it's also incredibly rewarding.

Jad: 11:18

Well, thank you for joining me on this journey.

Lilly: 11:20

My pleasure.

Jad: 11:20

Into the fascinating world of tree biomechanics.

Lilly: 11:23

It's been great talking to you.

Jad: 11:25

And to all of our listeners out there, thanks for tuning in.

Roger: 11:31

We hope you enjoyed learning about Lothar Wassally and Klaus Mathek, two pioneers who've transformed how we understand and care for trees. Their innovations in biomechanics and assessment continue to inspire arborists and tree lovers worldwide. Thank you for tuning in. Have questions or topics you'd like us to cover? Reach out. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, stay curious and keep celebrating the wonders of trees.