Roger: 0:02

Talking Trees with Lily and Jad. Welcome to Talking Trees. In this episode, we'll explore the history and management of ancient trees, focusing on those traditionally pruned for resources like wood fuel or livestock fodder. We'll dive into the two main types coppices cut near the ground and pollards pruned at height. Types coppices cut near the ground and pollards pruned at height, discussing their differences, historical practices and modern management techniques that prioritize biodiversity conservation.

Jad: 0:40

Welcome back everybody for another deep dive with us Today. We're going to get into some really fascinating stuff. We're going to be talking about veteran tree management oh, excellent. Specifically, we'll be talking about pollarding and coppicing, and the sources for today are Reed's Veteran Trees, a Guide to Good Management that's from 2000.

Lilly: 0:56

Okay.

Jad: 0:57

And Lonsdale's Edited Volume Ancient and Other Veteran Trees.

Lilly: 1:01

Excellent choices From 2013.

Jad: 1:03

Mm-hmm and other veteran trees Excellent choices From 2013. Mm-hmm and yeah, these techniques that we're talking about today, they're absolutely essential for preserving these like living historical treasures and fostering really, really unique habitats.

Lilly: 1:15

Yeah, these books are going to provide us with a lot of the practical guidance and kind of the historical context that is needed for caring for these living monuments.

Jad: 1:24

For sure. Okay, so let's jump right in and we'll start with compassing. Okay, Now compassing. You know it might sound a little bit aggressive at first, because we're talking about cutting the tree almost entirely to the ground, Right?

Lilly: 1:35

So what's the point of that? Well, what's fascinating about compassing is that you're not just managing the visible shoots that you see, you're managing the lifespan of a tree that could be spanning centuries. And what holds the key to that really is the coppice stool, the base from which the new growth emerges, and, as Reid points out, that these stools can be incredibly old.

Jad: 1:57

So, like the shoes might be young and vibrant, but the source that they're springing from is ancient. Yes, how ancient are we talking?

Lilly: 2:03

I mean think Roman Empire. Old Reed mentions a lime coppice stool that was estimated to be 2,000 years old. Wow, yeah, it really challenges our perception of time, doesn't it?

Jad: 2:13

1,000 years. That is mind-boggling, so I'm guessing there's no way to just count the rings on a coppice stool to determine its age, right?

Lilly: 2:28

So how do you even begin to estimate something like that? It's a bit like detective work. You can't count the rings in the traditional sense, but you can look at the size of the stool Generally for any given species. The larger the stool's width or height, the older it is. It's like reading the rings of time, but on a much grander scale.

Jad: 2:39

That's really incredible. So where would you find some of these ancient coppice stools?

Lilly: 2:42

Are we talking about like remote forests or you might be surprised, coppice stools can be found in managed woodlands, but also along rivers and in hedges and even ancient wood banks, and sometimes you'll come across what is called lapsed coppice, so that's where coppicing was practiced in the past, but has since been abandoned, so those trees start to look more like typical single stemmed trees.

Jad: 3:05

Lapsed coppice. So that kind of brings up the question of how management practices have changed over time. But before we get into that, let's transition to talking about pollarding. Now, how is pollarding different from coppicing?

Lilly: 3:16

So pollarding, like coppicing, involves cutting back the tree to stimulate new growth, but the key difference is the height. So instead of cutting near the ground, pollarding happens well above ground level, often at a height that is out of reach of grazing animals.

Jad: 3:32

So there's a practical element to this. Yes, it's a way to manage trees while still allowing grazing in the same area.

Lilly: 3:39

Exactly. In fact, the presence of veteran pollards can be a clue to past land use. If you're walking through an area and you come across a cluster of pollards, there's a good chance that was once wood, pasture or parkland.

Jad: 3:52

That's amazing. And where are veteran pollards found?

Lilly: 3:55

They can be found in a surprising variety of places, so wooded commons, parklands, royal forests, farmsteads, upland grazed woodlands, boundaries, designed landscapes, churchyards, riverbanks you name it.

Jad: 4:09

Wow, that's quite a diverse range of habitats. Yeah, right so with pollarding, you're removing a lot of branches, but not necessarily the entire crown of the tree, right? How is that different from topping a tree, or, as some might call it, beheading a tree?

Lilly: 4:21

Yeah, that's a crucial distinction. Pollarding is about a careful, selective cutting to encourage a particular form of growth. It's not about just removing the entire crown indiscriminately.

Jad: 4:33

So it's much more nuanced than just chopping off the top.

Lilly: 4:35

Yeah.

Jad: 4:35

But what happens if a pollarded tree isn't cut for a long time?

Lilly: 4:39

Well, that brings us to what Reed refers to as lapsed pollards. These are pollards that haven't been cut for an extended period and, as a result, those branches can become very heavy and they can put significant strain on the trunk.

Jad: 4:50

That doesn't sound good for the structural integrity of the tree.

Lilly: 4:53

You're right. It can lead to all sorts of problems. Those heavy branches become more susceptible to wind damage and the tree may even start to decline.

Jad: 5:01

So if you come across a lapsed pollard, what are the management options? Do you just cut everything back to the original pollard points?

Lilly: 5:08

It's tempting to think so, but that can be a recipe for disaster. Reed emphasizes that simply chopping everything back can shock the tree and cause what he calls physiological dysfunction. Okay, and can even potentially lead to the death of the tree.

Jad: 5:23

So how do you balance preserving the tree's structure and ensuring its long-term health?

Lilly: 5:28

It's a delicate balancing act. Often, the best approach is crown reduction, which involves carefully removing some of the weight from the branches without cutting back to the original pollard points.

Jad: 5:38

So taking a more measured approach.

Lilly: 5:41

Exactly, and sometimes crown reduction can be combined with a phased return to a pollarding cycle, but that requires careful observation and planning.

Jad: 5:51

So I'm starting to get the sense that managing these veteran trees requires a very, very deep understanding of the history of these trees and a very thoughtful approach to their future.

Lilly: 6:02

Now let's get into the actual cutting of these veteran trees. It's not as simple as just taking a chainsaw and going at it.

Jad: 6:08

Yeah, that's what I'm gathering. So, when it comes to pollarding, are there specific techniques that have stood the test of time?

Lilly: 6:14

Well, traditionally for species like oak and ash, pollarding involved removing the whole crown, but, as we discussed with lapsed pollards, that's not always the best approach. Reed stresses the importance of a more cautious approach, especially when dealing with trees that haven't been pollarded for a long time.

Jad: 6:30

So what about cutting intervals? Is there a set schedule for pollarding different species?

Lilly: 6:35

Well, that's where things get really interesting. Lonsdale's book delves into some of the historical practices and you'll find that cutting intervals varied quite a bit depending on the region and the tree species. For example, he mentions pollarding intervals for beech trees in Burnham Beaches. Based on some historical records, the intervals between cuts range from 11 to 36 years, depending on the period.

Jad: 6:58

Wow, so no magic formula, it seems. It's really about understanding the specific tree and its context.

Lilly: 7:03

Right.

Jad: 7:04

So what about coppice? We talked about last coppice earlier. What are some of the challenges there?

Lilly: 7:08

So imagine those coppice stems. Left uncut for decades, they become long and heavy, almost like individual trees themselves, and that can put a lot of stress on the stool, increasing the risk of those stems breaking or even the entire stool failing. It's a bit like neglecting a foundation eventually just can't support the structure anymore.

Jad: 7:27

So, just like with lapsed pollards, there's a need to intervene, but with careful consideration.

Lilly: 7:38

Exactly, and just as Red cautioned against aggressively cutting back on lapsed pollards, the same applies to coppice. You can't just go in and chop everything down to size. There's a whole ecosystem that depends on that coppice, especially those older, decaying stems.

Jad: 7:48

Yeah, that's right. You mentioned that they provide, like a particular type of habitat. Yeah, can you elaborate on that?

Lilly: 7:53

Yeah, so think of it this way as those coppice stems age and decay, they create cavities, they provide shelter and they become food sources for a whole host of organisms, from insects to fungi. These are known as saproxalic habitats, which literally means dead wood habitats, and these are incredibly important for biodiversity, especially in woodlands.

Jad: 8:15

It's another balancing act, isn't?

Lilly: 8:16

it, it is.

Jad: 8:17

Maintaining the health of the tree while preserving the habitat it supports. So what are some strategies for navigating that complexity?

Lilly: 8:24

Well Reed suggests some clever alternatives to just clear cutting. One technique is to cut coppice stems higher than usual. That complexity. Well Reed suggests some clever alternatives to just clear cutting. One technique is to cut coppice stems higher than usual, which seems counterintuitive, but this can actually help those older stems survive while still allowing some light to reach the new growth. It's kind of a way of bridging that gap between traditional coppicing and the realities of lapsed coppice.

Jad: 8:44

That's fascinating. So it's like finding this middle ground that benefits both the tree and the ecosystem as a whole.

Lilly: 8:50

Right.

Jad: 8:51

Are there any other techniques that Reed highlights?

Lilly: 8:54

Another approach is selective retention. So, instead of cutting back all the stems, you choose a few younger ones to keep, while removing the older, more vulnerable ones. This ensures the survival of the stool itself while promoting a mix of ages within the coppice.

Jad: 9:08

I see. So it's kind of like thinning a forest, but on a smaller scale.

Lilly: 9:11

Yeah.

Jad: 9:11

What about those retained stems? Do they just keep growing taller and taller?

Lilly: 9:16

Not necessarily. Reed suggests shortening those retained stems to allow enough light for new growth while still preserving some of their structure and habitat value. It's all about finding that sweet spot where everyone benefits.

Jad: 9:28

This is really making me think about the interconnectedness of the woodland ecosystem. It's not just about the individual trees, but about this whole web of life that they support.

Lilly: 9:36

Right. And to add another layer of complexity, Reed introduces the concept of coppers.

Jad: 9:41

Coppers. What are those?

Lilly: 9:43

Imagine taking a coppice stool and cutting some of the stems higher up, encouraging them to grow more like pollards. It's a way of creating a hybrid form combining elements of both coppicing and pollarding.

Jad: 9:55

So you get a more diverse structure within the woodland.

Lilly: 9:58

Yeah.

Jad: 9:58

And that would presumably enhance habitat diversity as well.

Lilly: 10:01

Exactly. It's about thinking outside the box, beyond rigid definitions, and finding creative solutions that meet the specific needs of the site and the ecosystem.

Jad: 10:11

Yeah, I'm really impressed by the level of thought and consideration that goes into managing these veteran trees. It's not a one size fits all approach, is it?

Lilly: 10:19

Absolutely not. Every tree, every site has its own unique history and set of circumstances and, as we've been discussing, there's this constant interplay between the needs of the tree, the surrounding ecosystem and even the historical land use practices.

Jad: 10:33

Right. So we've talked about the intricacies of cutting both pollards and coppice, but what about those natural processes of regeneration? I'm really eager to hear about layering and phoenix regeneration. Are those also a factor in managing veteran trees?

Lilly: 10:48

They certainly are. These are fascinating processes that highlight the incredible resilience of veteran trees, and sometimes we can even lend a helping hand.

Jad: 10:57

So let's talk about these incredible ways that veteran trees can sort of bounce back from these tough situations. I'm really curious about layering and phoenix regeneration.

Lilly: 11:06

Well, these are really fascinating processes that highlight the incredible resilience of veteran trees and with layering, it's essentially when a low branch comes in contact with the ground and takes root, forming a new tree from the original.

Jad: 11:20

It's like the tree is cloning itself. Is that something that's common in veteran trees?

Lilly: 11:24

It's more frequent than you might think, especially when you consider that these are ancient trees with sprawling branches that very often do come in contact with the ground. And then we have phoenix regeneration, which is even more dramatic.

Jad: 11:35

Okay, now you've got me hooked. What is phoenix regeneration?

Lilly: 11:39

So picture a veteran tree that is perhaps weakened by age or a storm falls to the ground. In some cases, that fallen stem can sprout new roots and shoots, giving the tree a second chance at life, rising from the ashes, so to speak.

Jad: 11:54

That is incredible. So even in decline, these trees have ways of carrying on their legacy. Can management practices help these processes?

Lilly: 12:02

along Absolutely. We can play a role in fostering these natural regeneration processes, for example with layering carefully. Cutting branches to reach the ground without snapping can encourage rooting. We can even create mounds of soil to help those branches take hold.

Jad: 12:15

So it's almost like you're giving the tree a helping hand. Yeah, to root.

Lilly: 12:20

Exactly, and with Phoenix regeneration. Protecting those exposed roots and new foliage from drying out is key. Mounding soil over the roots, providing shade or even watering during dry spells can make all the difference.

Jad: 12:32

It's like you're giving the tree first aid to help it recover. I never really thought about managing veteran trees in that way.

Lilly: 12:39

It's a different perspective, isn't it? Instead of just focusing on pruning and cutting, we're really working with the tree's natural abilities to regenerate and thrive. And, of course, protecting these areas from grazing animals is absolutely essential, because they can nibble away at that tender new growth.

Jad: 12:56

It all ties back to that interconnected web that we were talking about.

Lilly: 12:59

Yes.

Jad: 12:59

You know, protecting these new shoots ensures that the next generation of veteran trees can continue to shape the landscape. This deep dive has been really, really eye-opening. You know, I'm starting to see these veteran trees in a whole new light.

Lilly: 13:12

That's the beauty of it they offer us a glimpse into the past and they hold valuable lessons for the future. These trees are not static elements in the landscape. They're dynamic living beings that have adapted and persisted over centuries.

Jad: 13:26

And their survival really often hinges on us having this deep understanding of their history and their ecology and the role of human intervention. It's been absolutely fascinating to learn from your expertise.

Lilly: 13:39

I think one of the key takeaways from all this is the importance of taking a holistic approach to veteran tree management. Whether you're dealing with a grand old pollard in a park or a humble coppice stool tucked away in a woodland, their management is this ongoing conversation between the tree, the environment and us.

Jad: 13:56

It's a conversation that spans centuries. Thank you for joining us on this incredible deep dive into the world of veteran trees. We'll see you next time for another fascinating exploration. Until then, keep those questions coming and keep looking up.

Roger: 14:13

That's all for today's episode of Talking Trees. We hope you enjoyed this look into the history and management of ancient coppices and pollards and the important role they play in supporting biodiversity. Don't forget to join us next time as we explore more topics from the world of trees and arboriculture. Until then, take care and cherish those old trees. Thank you.