Roger: 0:02

Talking Trees with Lillian Jad. Welcome to Talking Trees. Today we explore the centuries-old practice of tree pruning in northern Spain and central Europe. We examine historical techniques like pollarding and heading cuts, their role in creating habitats for wildlife, fungi and lichens, and how these methods contribute to nature conservation. Let's dive in.

Jad: 0:32

Hey there, fellow arborists.

Lilly: 0:34

Oh hey.

Jad: 0:34

Ready for a journey back in time with me to explore a technique that's like as old as time itself? Okay, pollarding, you might think it's ancient history. Yeah, but I think you'll be surprised how relevant pollarding. You might think it's ancient history, yeah, but I think you'll be surprised how relevant pollarding is to the work we do today.

Lilly: 0:49

Okay.

Jad: 0:50

We'll uncover its fascinating history the diverse techniques used around the world and what it can teach us about managing trees for the long haul.

Lilly: 0:57

Okay, yeah, I'm excited to see where this goes.

Jad: 0:59

So what I find so compelling about pollarding is it's not just about chopping off branches. Right, it connects us to like centuries of forest management.

Lilly: 1:09

Yeah.

Jad: 1:09

Cultural practices.

Lilly: 1:10

Yeah.

Jad: 1:11

And like a deep understanding of how trees respond to human intervention.

Lilly: 1:16

Yeah, I mean it's really interesting to me to see how these practices have evolved over time and how they're still relevant today.

Jad: 1:23

Exactly, and we're not just sticking to one region. We're going global with this exploration, from the sunny hills of Spain oh wow To the rugged mountains of the Basque Country.

Lilly: 1:33

Okay, this is going to be quite a journey.

Jad: 1:36

So let's break it down for our listeners what exactly is pollarding and why should a modern arborist care about it?

Lilly: 1:42

And why should a modern arborist care about it? Well, at its core, pollarding is the practice of repeatedly cutting back a tree's branches to the same point on the trunk.

Jad: 1:50

Right.

Lilly: 1:51

Always above the browse line of grazing animal.

Jad: 1:53

Right, so it's not coppicing.

Lilly: 1:55

Right, exactly, coppicing is at ground level, got it? This stimulates new growth from those cut points, leading to that distinctive knobby growth we often see on pollarded trees.

Jad: 2:07

So it's like giving a tree a very specific, very regular haircut. It is, it is and I know this might sound familiar to coppicing but, there's a key difference, right.

Lilly: 2:16

Absolutely. While both techniques involve cutting back growth to stimulate new shoots, the difference lies in where you make the cut. Coppicing takes place at ground level, while pollarding happens higher up on the trunk.

Jad: 2:29

People throughout history have pollarded trees for a surprising variety of reasons.

Lilly: 2:34

Yeah, it's true. The reasons are as diverse as the trees themselves. Yeah, over the centuries, pollarding has provided firewood, charcoal, building materials, even fodder for livestock.

Jad: 2:46

Really.

Lilly: 2:47

Those young, flexible shoots for a valuable resource, and the practice was often a key part of sustainable agriculture and woodland management.

Jad: 2:55

I can already see how this knowledge could be relevant to our work today.

Lilly: 2:59

Oh, for sure.

Jad: 3:00

Especially when we're trying to manage trees in urban environments.

Lilly: 3:02

Right.

Jad: 3:03

Or promote biodiversity.

Lilly: 3:04

Yeah.

Jad: 3:04

But before we jump ahead, okay, let's delve into a particularly fascinating chapter in the history of pollarding.

Lilly: 3:11

Okay, I'm ready.

Jad: 3:12

Let's head to the Basque country in Spain, where they developed a unique form of pollarding.

Lilly: 3:17

Okay.

Jad: 3:17

Called guided pollards or epinomaros. This wasn't about random chopping.

Lilly: 3:23

Okay.

Jad: 3:24

The Basques had a very specific goal in mind, particularly with oak trees.

Lilly: 3:28

Yeah, I mean oak trees are. They're pretty versatile. Picture this Okay. Instead of just removing all the branches, they would carefully prune the branches. Okay, leaving two main ones. Okay, the horca, which is the forked branch.

Jad: 3:43

Okay.

Lilly: 3:46

And the pendon, which is the single straight standard Okay. The horca, which is the forked branch, okay. And the pendon, which is the single straight standard, okay. Imagine it like a giant letter Y growing out of the top of the trunk.

Jad: 3:51

Now that you describe it like that, I can almost picture it.

Lilly: 3:54

Yeah.

Jad: 3:55

But why go through all that trouble to train the trees into that specific shape? Ship building, oh wow.

Lilly: 4:02

Those long, straight branches were ideal for creating the curved timbers needed for ship. Construction makes sense. Remember we're talking about the 16th century, when shipbuilding was booming but timber was becoming scarce.

Jad: 4:16

It's incredible how these ancient practices were so intertwined with the economic and political realities of the time.

Lilly: 4:23

Absolutely. I mean you can't separate the two.

Jad: 4:25

Yeah, deforestation was a growing concern across Europe. It was a huge problem In the Basque Country. Authorities even issued regulations promoting guided pollards to ensure a steady timber supply for their shipbuilding industry.

Lilly: 4:39

It's interesting how they were trying to find a balance between utilizing the resources they had but also ensuring that they weren't completely depleting them.

Jad: 4:48

They were trying to prevent people from just felling trees indiscriminately and depleting their valuable resources.

Lilly: 4:53

Exactly, it was about sustainability.

Jad: 4:56

So like a pretty forward thinking approach for the time. It was, but I'm curious.

Lilly: 5:00

Yeah.

Jad: 5:01

Did people actually follow these regulations? Human nature being what it is, I can imagine some might have been tempted to cut corners.

Lilly: 5:08

Well, you're right to be skeptical, because that's where the story takes a fascinating turn.

Jad: 5:12

Okay.

Lilly: 5:13

There's a 1792 report by Bernardino Corvera, the Navy commissioner for San Sebastian. Okay, and he exposed widespread noncompliance with the guided aspect of pollarding. Wow, so people were just kind of doing their own thing. He exposed widespread noncompliance with the guided aspect of pollarding.

Jad: 5:25

Wow. So people were just kind of doing their own thing.

Lilly: 5:27

Pretty much. It turned out. Many people were simply pollarding trees for their own personal gain, really Ignoring the regulations.

Jad: 5:34

Wow, so these regulations didn't really have much teeth.

Lilly: 5:38

Apparently not.

Jad: 5:39

So this report sounds like a goldmine of information. It is. What were the motivations behind this noncompliance? Was it purely about profit, or were there other factors at play?

Lilly: 5:50

Well, it's a complex issue. I mean, some people were definitely driven by profit Makes sense. You know, prioritizing short term gains over the long term sustainability of the timber supply Right. But others were struggling to meet their own basic needs, forced to make difficult choices in the face of economic hardship.

Jad: 6:11

Wow. So it's like a Really complicated issue with a lot of factors.

Lilly: 6:15

Yeah, and it's a stark reminder that even well-intentioned regulations can have unintended consequences.

Jad: 6:21

That's very true.

Lilly: 6:22

Especially when they don't fully consider the realities faced by the people on the ground.

Jad: 6:27

It also highlights how important it is for us, as modern arborists, to understand the social and economic context of our work.

Lilly: 6:34

Absolutely.

Jad: 6:35

We need to consider the needs of the community.

Lilly: 6:38

Right.

Jad: 6:38

The long-term health of the trees and the overall sustainability of the urban forest.

Lilly: 6:43

Yeah, I think that's a crucial point.

Jad: 6:45

But before we get too deep into the present, okay, let's finish our journey through the history of pollarding in Spain.

Lilly: 6:51

Okay.

Jad: 6:52

What happened to the practice after this period of non-compliance?

Lilly: 6:56

Well, sadly, this widespread disregard for the guidelines.

Roger: 7:00

Okay.

Lilly: 7:00

Coupled with the eventual decline of shipbuilding in the 19th century and the rise of industrialization, led to the decline of guided pollarding in the Basque country.

Jad: 7:09

That's quite a story, it is isn't it From this unique method? It's amazing how interwoven the history of pollarding is with the development of human civilization.

Lilly: 7:18

It really is.

Jad: 7:19

But what about pollarding in modern day Spain?

Lilly: 7:22

Yeah.

Jad: 7:22

Does this practice still exist?

Lilly: 7:24

It does, oh wow.

Jad: 7:25

Well, not as widespread as in the past.

Lilly: 7:27

Pollarding is still practiced in some parts of Spain. Ok. The techniques and reasons, though, have evolved. Ok. For instance, Helen Reed, a researcher who has an extensive work on pollarding in Spain, observed these really unusual shredded pollards in the Picos de Europa mountains.

Jad: 7:44

Shredded pollards.

Lilly: 7:45

Yeah.

Jad: 7:46

That's a new one for me. What do they look like and what's the purpose of this technique?

Lilly: 7:51

Well, imagine a pollarded tree where, instead of the clean cuts, the branches have been cut in a way that leaves them looking frayed or shredded, almost like they've been deliberately roughened up.

Jad: 8:05

Wouldn't that kind of damage the tree?

Lilly: 8:06

Well, that's what makes it so intriguing. While we don't have definitive answers yet, it's possible that this shredding technique serves a specific purpose, perhaps related to encouraging new growth in a particular way or influencing the direction of future branching. Reed wasn't able to uncover the exact reasons behind it, but it certainly raises questions about the potential variations and adaptations of pollarding techniques that might exist out there.

Jad: 8:35

Right.

Lilly: 8:36

It's like a puzzle waiting to be solved.

Jad: 8:38

It definitely sparks my curiosity.

Lilly: 8:40

Yeah, me too.

Jad: 8:41

And it reminds me of how much we still have to learn about trees and their responses to different management practices. For sure, but Reed's research didn't just uncover mysteries. What about those well-maintained beach pollards she found in the Bosque Delirati?

Lilly: 8:56

Ah yes, the Bosque Delirati. Ah yes, the Bosque Delirati. Those beach pollards are magnificent living testaments to the longevity that can be achieved with pollarding. But their presence highlights another fascinating aspect of modern day pollarding Public awareness, or rather the lack thereof.

Jad: 9:14

What do you?

Lilly: 9:14

mean, well, think about it from a visitor's perspective. You arrive at the Bosque Delirati. You mean Well, think about it from a visitor's perspective. You arrive at the Bas Delirati, you park your car, yeah, and you're literally surrounded by these stunning ancient beach pollards.

Jad: 9:26

Right, so they're just kind of like a given.

Lilly: 9:28

They are, but the information provided to visitors, the signage, the brochures they don't even mention the pollarding. Really, it's like this incredible technique that has shaped these trees over centuries is just completely overlooked.

Jad: 9:44

That seems like a missed opportunity to educate the public about the history.

Lilly: 9:47

It is.

Jad: 9:48

Ecological importance and cultural significance of these trees.

Lilly: 9:52

Exactly Imagine the impact of informing visitors about the centuries of human interaction with those trees.

Jad: 9:59

Yeah.

Lilly: 9:59

The techniques used and the reasons behind them.

Jad: 10:03

It would really change how people see them. It would. It wouldn't just enrich their experience, but could foster a deeper appreciation for the value of trees and the importance of sustainable management practices. This really emphasizes the role we play not just as arborists, but as educators. We need to be advocates for trees and share our knowledge with the wider community.

Lilly: 10:25

I completely agree.

Jad: 10:26

But before we lose ourselves in the public education forest, let's switch gears and delve into a study that really blew my mind the systematic documentation of pollarded trees in the Montes Altos de Vitoria.

Lilly: 10:39

Okay.

Jad: 10:40

Using archaeological methods.

Lilly: 10:41

Now that's a study that really pushes the boundaries of how we think about pollarding.

Jad: 10:45

I know right.

Lilly: 10:46

Researchers Angel Martinez Monticello and Jose Rodriguez Fernandez approached these trees as living artifacts, recognizing that they weren't just random elements in the landscape but witnesses to centuries of human activity.

Jad: 11:01

It's like they were using the trees to unlock a hidden history of the region.

Lilly: 11:04

Exactly.

Jad: 11:05

So how did they go about this archaeological investigation?

Lilly: 11:08

Well, by meticulously analyzing the distribution, species and even the shape of the trunks, they were able to identify different productive spaces related to historical economic activities.

Jad: 11:22

Oh, wow.

Lilly: 11:22

For example, certain areas might have been used for charcoal production, while others were focused on livestock grazing.

Jad: 11:29

Makes sense.

Lilly: 11:29

Or timber harvesting.

Jad: 11:31

So the trees themselves held the clues they did. That's so cool.

Lilly: 11:34

It is.

Jad: 11:35

But I can imagine they faced some challenges. Oh yeah, Especially when trying to.

Lilly: 11:37

I can imagine they faced some challenges, oh yeah.

Jad: 11:38

Especially when trying to determine the age of these ancient trees.

Lilly: 11:41

Right.

Jad: 11:42

Did they rely on traditional dendrochronology?

Lilly: 11:44

They did.

Jad: 11:45

Okay.

Lilly: 11:45

But it wasn't straightforward.

Jad: 11:47

Okay.

Lilly: 11:47

Many of the older trees had hollowed trunks.

Jad: 11:49

Right Makes sense.

Lilly: 11:50

And a unique helical growth pattern, which made counting tree rings incredibly difficult.

Jad: 11:55

Wow. So how did they figure out how old these trees were?

Lilly: 11:59

They had to get creative. Oh, through careful observation and analysis. Okay, they were able to estimate the age of several specimens.

Jad: 12:08

Okay.

Lilly: 12:09

And get this one oak tree turned out to be over 413 years old 413 years old.

Jad: 12:17

Yeah, that is mind-blowing, it is over 413 years old 413 years old, that is mind-blowing it is and it highlights how much history is contained within these ancient trees.

Lilly: 12:22

I know it's incredible.

Jad: 12:24

Did their research uncover anything else that might be relevant to modern arborists?

Lilly: 12:28

Absolutely. Their research paper includes a comprehensive classification of all the pollarded trees they documented, categorized by species and trunk perimeter.

Roger: 12:38

Right.

Lilly: 12:38

This creates a valuable database for future research Uh-huh, and could be incredibly useful for understanding the long-term effects of pollarding on different tree species.

Jad: 12:49

We'll definitely have to track down that paper.

Lilly: 12:50

Yeah, it's worth a read.

Jad: 12:52

I'm already thinking about how this information could inform my own practice.

Lilly: 12:56

I think it could be really valuable.

Jad: 12:58

But so far we've mostly focused on pollarding in Spain and the Basque country. Let's zoom out a bit and explore how pollarding has been practiced around the world.

Lilly: 13:09

Okay, sounds good.

Jad: 13:10

For example, I've heard that pollarding has a long tradition in the Czech Republic.

Lilly: 13:15

It does.

Jad: 13:15

Particularly with willow trees.

Lilly: 13:17

Yeah, willow pollarding is deeply ingrained in Czech culture.

Jad: 13:20

Really.

Lilly: 13:21

Particularly along waterways, where the flexible willow branches were used for various purposes.

Jad: 13:27

Okay.

Lilly: 13:27

From basket weaving to erosion control.

Jad: 13:30

It's a great example of how pollarding can be integrated into both the natural and cultural landscape.

Roger: 13:35

It is.

Jad: 13:36

And what about the Himalayan region? I understand pollarding is still an important practice there.

Lilly: 13:40

Indeed, in the Himalayas, pollarding is integral to local agriculture and forestry.

Jad: 13:47

Oh.

Lilly: 13:47

It provides fodder for livestock fuel, wood for cooking and heating Wow and even building materials for houses and fences.

Jad: 13:56

Really.

Lilly: 13:56

It's a sustainable practice that has supported communities for generations.

Jad: 14:00

It's fascinating to see how this ancient technique continues to be relevant in different parts of the world.

Lilly: 14:05

Yeah, it really is.

Jad: 14:06

Adapting to local needs and environments. Absolutely but it's not just about the practical uses, is it Right? We haven't even touched on the ecological benefits of pollarding.

Lilly: 14:16

You're absolutely right.

Jad: 14:17

And in a world facing a biodiversity crisis, I'm guessing those ecological benefits are more important than ever.

Lilly: 14:22

Exactly.

Jad: 14:23

So those hollowed out trunks of ancient pollards. They provide essential habitat for a wide range of organisms.

Lilly: 14:31

They do.

Jad: 14:32

From insects and birds to bats and even small mammals.

Lilly: 14:38

And don't forget about the fungi and lichens.

Jad: 14:40

And the decaying wood supports a whole ecosystem of fungi, lichens and invertebrates.

Lilly: 14:46

It's amazing.

Jad: 14:47

Pollarding can transform a single tree into a mini biodiversity hotspot.

Lilly: 14:52

It's like creating micro ecosystems within the urban forest.

Jad: 14:56

Exactly, but speaking of risks, yeah. There's one big one we haven't discussed yet.

Lilly: 15:00

Okay, I'm listening.

Jad: 15:01

The risk of doing pollarding incorrectly.

Lilly: 15:04

Oh yeah, that's a big one.

Jad: 15:06

You're spot on Pollarding.

Lilly: 15:07

Yeah.

Jad: 15:08

Like any tree care technique, yeah, requires knowledge, uh-huh and skill. For sure. It's not something to just jump into without proper training and understanding.

Lilly: 15:18

Right, you really got to know what you're doing.

Jad: 15:19

Improper pollarding can cause long-term damage to a tree, right Shorten its lifespan.

Lilly: 15:26

Yeah.

Jad: 15:26

And even make it hazardous.

Lilly: 15:27

Absolutely.

Jad: 15:28

We've all seen examples of trees that have been topped or poorly pruned.

Lilly: 15:31

Oh yeah.

Jad: 15:32

Leading to weak, unstable growth.

Lilly: 15:35

Yeah.

Jad: 15:35

And decay.

Lilly: 15:36

Right, it's a recipe for disaster.

Jad: 15:38

It's crucial to remember that pollarding is a long-term commitment.

Lilly: 15:42

It is, you're in it for the long haul.

Jad: 15:43

And that commitment.

Lilly: 15:45

Yeah.

Jad: 15:45

Brings us to another essential aspect of successful pollarding Observation and documentation.

Lilly: 15:52

Right, you got to keep track of what you're doing.

Jad: 15:53

Think of pollarding as an ongoing conversation.

Lilly: 15:57

Yeah.

Jad: 15:57

Between the arborist.

Lilly: 15:58

Yeah.

Jad: 15:59

And the tree.

Lilly: 16:00

I like that analogy.

Jad: 16:01

A conversation that can span decades.

Lilly: 16:03

Yeah, it's a long-term relationship.

Jad: 16:05

To have a successful conversation, right, you need to listen carefully.

Lilly: 16:09

Okay.

Jad: 16:10

And pay attention to the details.

Lilly: 16:17

So we're not just making cuts, we're observing how the tree responds to each cut. Exactly how it heals how it grows.

Jad: 16:20

It's about building a relationship with the tree.

Lilly: 16:23

It is. It's about respect.

Jad: 16:24

Precisely, we need to be attentive to those subtle cues the tree gives us.

Lilly: 16:29

Right, you got to read the signs.

Jad: 16:31

Is it producing vigorous new growth?

Lilly: 16:33

Uh-huh.

Jad: 16:34

Are the wounds closing properly?

Lilly: 16:36

Right.

Jad: 16:38

Are there any signs of stress or disease?

Lilly: 16:41

Yeah, those are all important things to look out for.

Jad: 16:44

These are the questions a skilled arborist is constantly asking.

Lilly: 16:47

It's all part of the process.

Jad: 16:48

And that's where documentation comes in.

Lilly: 16:50

Right Got to keep records.

Jad: 16:51

We need to have detailed records of our pollarding work.

Lilly: 16:55

Yeah.

Jad: 16:56

Not just for our own benefit, but for the future arborists who will inherit these trees.

Lilly: 17:01

It's about passing on the knowledge.

Jad: 17:03

Imagine having access to detailed records of pollarding work done 50 or 100 years ago.

Lilly: 17:09

Wow, that would be amazing.

Jad: 17:11

It would be invaluable for understanding the long-term effects of different techniques.

Lilly: 17:15

Yeah.

Jad: 17:16

And for making informed decisions about future care.

Lilly: 17:19

It would be like having a roadmap.

Jad: 17:21

It's like having a historical map of the tree's growth and development.

Lilly: 17:25

Exactly.

Jad: 17:25

Showing us how it's responded to past interventions.

Lilly: 17:28

You can really learn a lot from that.

Jad: 17:30

And with today's technology, documentation is easier than ever.

Lilly: 17:34

Yeah, we've got all these tools at our disposal.

Jad: 17:36

We can use photos, videos, even GPS coordinates to create comprehensive records.

Lilly: 17:41

The whole new world.

Jad: 17:42

But even a simple notebook can be a powerful tool.

Lilly: 17:46

Absolutely the important thing is to just do it.

Jad: 17:48

The key is consistency and thoroughness in our observations and record keeping.

Lilly: 17:52

Right, you've got to be diligent.

Jad: 17:54

It's about building a body of knowledge that we can share with future generations of arborists.

Lilly: 17:59

It's about leaving a legacy.

Jad: 18:01

But you know, as we've been talking about observation and documentation, it's striking me that pollarding yeah. In a way is a form of scientific inquiry.

Lilly: 18:12

I see what you mean.

Jad: 18:13

With each pollarding cut, we're essentially conducting an experiment.

Lilly: 18:16

Right, we're testing a hypothesis.

Jad: 18:18

We're manipulating a variable.

Lilly: 18:20

Okay.

Jad: 18:20

And then we're carefully observing and recording the results.

Lilly: 18:23

Right, it's the scientific method in action.

Jad: 18:26

The more data we collect, the better we'll understand the nuances of pollarding.

Lilly: 18:30

Yeah.

Jad: 18:31

And how to optimize our techniques for different species and environment.

Lilly: 18:34

It's a constant learning process.

Jad: 18:36

It's a reminder that arboriculture is both a science and an art.

Lilly: 18:40

It is.

Jad: 18:41

We need to be both skilled practitioners and keen observers, always learning and adapting our approach based on the latest research and our own experiences.

Lilly: 18:52

It's about finding that balance.

Jad: 18:55

And finally, remember that pollarding is not just a technical practice. Right Okay, it's about finding that balance, right Okay? Uh-huh, it's about respect, yeah Okay. It's a legacy well said, and with that yeah we'll bring this exploration of pollarding to a close okay I hope you've enjoyed this journey with us I have and that it sparked your curiosity to learn more about this ancient and fascinating practice me too, and, who knows, yeah, maybe it's even inspired you to consider incorporating pollarding into your own work.

Roger: 19:36

That'll be great.

Jad: 19:37

Shaping the urban forest of the future, one carefully pruned branch at a time.

Lilly: 19:42

One branch at a time.

Jad: 19:44

Thanks for listening.

Roger: 19:48

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Talking Trees. Today, we reviewed the historical practice of tree pruning in northern Spain and central Europe, focusing on techniques such as pollarding and heading cuts and their ecological implications. We examined how these practices foster unique habitats and extend tree longevity, while also considering the challenges posed by overgrowth and felling. We appreciate your engagement and look forward to our next discussion.