Roger: 0:02

Talking Trees with Lillian Jad. Welcome to Talking Trees. Today we explore a book that traces the life of Mark Johnston from his Scottish roots and childhood in England to his professional journey in arboriculture and forestry. The work details his experiences in Welsh forests, academic pursuits in arboriculture and involvement in urban forestry projects across Britain and Ireland. It also highlights his roles with organizations like Forest of London, his work as a consultant and educator, and addresses the social and political dimensions of urban tree management, enriched by personal anecdotes and reflections from his experiences in the USA and China.

Jad: 0:50

Welcome back everybody. Today we're going to be looking at a career I think you'll find really interesting. Okay, you've heard of Mark, right yeah, legendary in our field, but his story isn't the typical climb the ladder kind of tale. Right story isn't the typical climb the ladder kind of tale. Right, it's more like um imagine a massive oak with roots stretching back generations okay branches reaching across continents yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Lilly: 1:15

So what strikes me is how, like, even those early years that seemed completely unrelated to trees, actually like, actually like, shaped his path Almost like he was collecting different tools and skills.

Jad: 1:28

Yeah.

Lilly: 1:29

Not even knowing that they were going to be crucial later.

Jad: 1:31

Right, like his family history.

Lilly: 1:33

Uh-huh.

Jad: 1:34

Deeply rooted in the land. You know, yeah, grandfather in World War I, mm-hmm, his father working the fields in World War II Right, they weren't gardeners themselves. But work in the fields in World War II Right, they weren't gardeners themselves.

Lilly: 1:46

but that connection to the outdoors must have left a mark Absolutely, and you see that independence streak pretty early on too.

Jad: 1:50

Yeah.

Lilly: 1:51

Remember how he got expelled from school, not for misbehaving Right, but for refusing to study. Yeah, he was a guy who needed to find his own way.

Jad: 1:59

His own purpose.

Lilly: 2:00

Yeah, exactly.

Jad: 2:01

Yeah, and he found it.

Lilly: 2:02

In the most unexpected place.

Jad: 2:04

Brushful Forest in Wales.

Lilly: 2:06

Yeah, you can almost picture him there, right.

Jad: 2:09

Yeah, that guy Surrounded by these towering trees.

Lilly: 2:11

Finally feeling like he'd come home.

Jad: 2:13

Yeah.

Lilly: 2:14

It's fascinating how that experience really shaped him.

Jad: 2:17

Yeah.

Lilly: 2:17

There's this anecdote about Mark felling these spruce trees that his foreman had actually planted decades earlier, almost like cutting down the past. You know, it must have sparked some deep thoughts about the cyclical nature of trees, their lifespan, their impact on the landscape.

Jad: 2:39

Get this. He was hanging out with a mix of Welsh locals and English hippies who moved there for a simpler life. Really Talk about bridging different worlds, wow. I mean, as arborists, we know how important that skill is right.

Lilly: 2:48

Oh yeah.

Jad: 2:48

Connecting with people from all walks of life.

Lilly: 2:50

It's essential.

Jad: 2:51

Yeah, and that ability to connect, yeah, to understand different perspectives, that's a thread you see throughout Mark's entire career. Absolutely, totally so. Picture this Okay 1974, mark leaves the Forestry Commission, buys his own chainsaw and goes independent.

Lilly: 3:08

Wow.

Jad: 3:09

As fellow arborists, we know the risks of working the timber like that right. Oh yeah, those experienced guys warned him about the danger, how it either wises you up about safety or ends your career altogether.

Lilly: 3:21

It's a testament to his courage and determination. Right, he wasn't afraid of hard work, he wasn't afraid to push himself and even with all those risks, he was drawn to that challenge, that freedom of being his own boss.

Jad: 3:36

But then he makes this surprising move. Okay, he enrolls at Marist Wood College, not for general forestry but specifically for tree surgery. Interesting, it's like he was shifting his focus from those wild landscapes to the more intricate world of urban trees.

Lilly: 3:52

It's a big shift, for sure.

Jad: 3:53

Yeah.

Lilly: 3:53

It wasn't all smooth sailing either.

Jad: 3:55

Oh really.

Lilly: 3:56

Think about this the guy who'd spent years in the forest actually struggled with tree identification at first. Wow it just goes to show.

Jad: 4:03

Yeah, even for someone as experienced as Mark, there's always something new to learn. He went from a basic tree guide to diving headfirst into Mitchell's field guide and the Hillier manual. He was determined to master this new world, this new language of urban trees. And it wasn't just book learning Right, he had to get his hands dirty, literally. Yeah, mastering techniques like his hands dirty, literally. Mastering techniques like budding and grafting. There's even a story about him injuring himself while practicing. Talk about dedication. I bet that giant sequoia at the college entrance made an impression on him too. Remember how he tackled that killer commute From Hampton Wick to Marist Wood. He teamed up with a fellow student, sharing the drive and the costs. Small, resourceful right.

Lilly: 4:50

Yeah.

Jad: 4:51

Shows that even back then he was a problem solver, finding ways to make things work.

Lilly: 4:55

Yeah.

Jad: 4:56

A valuable skill for any arborist, wouldn't you say?

Lilly: 5:00

Absolutely, absolutely. It's that kind of practical thinking that sets a good arborist apart, and those skills were put to the test when Mark landed that job at Crawley Borough Council managing those historic pleasure grounds, I mean some of those trees dated back to the 1800s. Can you imagine the stories they could tell?

Jad: 5:20

It's a whole different world from those wild Welsh forests right, oh yeah. Here he was caring for trees that had witnessed generations come and go Right, trees that were part of the community's history.

Lilly: 5:30

Absolutely. It must have deepened his appreciation for the cultural significance of trees.

Jad: 5:35

Yeah.

Lilly: 5:35

Their role in shaping our urban landscapes.

Jad: 5:39

And then boom, he takes another leap.

Lilly: 5:41

What's next?

Jad: 5:41

He teams up with James. Oh Fellow arborist. Uh, Another leap. What's next? He teams up with James, fellow arborist starts his own tree surgery company. They weren't afraid to go for the big jobs either.

Lilly: 5:50

Like what.

Jad: 5:51

Remember that contract at Frogmore Gardens? No, they were rigging massive 120-foot elm trees. Wow, carefully lowering sections near that historic gatehouse and those delicate hedges.

Lilly: 6:05

You know, that's the kind of project that separates the pros from the amateurs.

Roger: 6:08

Right.

Jad: 6:12

It required a unique blend of skill, precision and nerves of steel. Yeah, they were pushing boundaries, refining techniques, really putting their expertise on the line.

Lilly: 6:18

Yeah, and their partnership was more than just about technical skills, wasn't it?

Jad: 6:21

Right.

Lilly: 6:22

They had this shared work ethic, this dedication to quality.

Jad: 6:25

Yeah.

Lilly: 6:26

That's crucial when you're running your own business.

Jad: 6:28

It was a true partnership Right, each bringing their own strengths to the table.

Lilly: 6:31

Yeah, james had the business savvy and a knack for machinery.

Jad: 6:34

Right and Mark brought that deep knowledge of trees and that ability to plan those complex operations.

Lilly: 6:41

They balanced each other out perfectly.

Jad: 6:43

Yeah, and even though they had some pretty different views, especially when it came to politics, they managed to avoid those clashes and focus on that shared passion for trees.

Lilly: 6:54

That's a valuable lesson in itself.

Jad: 6:56

Right.

Lilly: 6:57

Absolutely. Sometimes you have to set aside those differences and focus on the common ground, especially when you're building a business together.

Jad: 7:04

Right.

Lilly: 7:04

But Mark's thirst for knowledge, that desire to keep growing it, eventually led him back to Marist Wood.

Jad: 7:13

Oh, wow.

Lilly: 7:14

This time as an instructor.

Jad: 7:15

Talk about coming full circle, right? He could have easily stayed in the commercial world.

Lilly: 7:19

Yeah.

Jad: 7:20

But he felt that pull towards education, towards shaping the next generation of arborists.

Lilly: 7:27

It shows a real commitment to the field.

Jad: 7:29

Yeah.

Lilly: 7:29

He wasn't just content with his own success. He wanted to pass on that knowledge, that passion to others.

Jad: 7:35

Right.

Lilly: 7:35

And it was during this time that he really started to delve into the people side of urban forestry.

Jad: 7:41

He was reading John Anderson's work connecting with other pioneers, realizing that there was so much more to this profession than just technical skills.

Lilly: 7:52

It was like a whole new world was opening up to him. Right, he was starting to see that bigger picture.

Jad: 7:57

Yeah.

Lilly: 7:58

Those intricate connections between trees, people and the urban environment.

Jad: 8:04

He was moving beyond the howl of tree care and exploring the why, the social, cultural, even political dimensions of our work.

Lilly: 8:12

And that shift in thinking led him to Harrow, where he took on the role of forestry officer. Now he wasn't just responsible for trees he was managing staff, juggling budgets, navigating the complexities of local government.

Jad: 8:26

It was a whole different set of challenges.

Lilly: 8:27

Right.

Jad: 8:28

He had to learn to be a leader, a decision maker and sometimes even a bit of a politician.

Lilly: 8:33

And he had to learn fast.

Jad: 8:34

Yeah.

Lilly: 8:34

Remember that story about his detailed tree management report being basically ignored by the council.

Jad: 8:40

Oh yeah.

Lilly: 8:40

It was a wake up call to the realities of working within a bureaucracy. It's a lesson we've all probably learned at some point.

Jad: 8:47

Oh yeah, for sure.

Lilly: 8:48

Even with the best intentions, even with solid data, sometimes those decisions come down to budgets and politics.

Jad: 8:55

Absolutely. But even with those frustrations, Mark found ways to make a difference. Like what he implemented this innovative approach to reducing insurance claims related to trees.

Lilly: 9:06

Okay.

Jad: 9:06

Saving the council a significant amount of money.

Lilly: 9:09

Resourceful.

Jad: 9:09

Right. He wasn't afraid to think outside the box.

Lilly: 9:12

Yeah.

Jad: 9:13

To find practical solutions that benefited both trees and the community's bottom line.

Lilly: 9:18

It shows a real understanding of how to navigate those complex systems.

Jad: 9:22

Yeah.

Lilly: 9:23

To find those win-win solutions.

Jad: 9:24

And it's a theme you see throughout his career that ability to adapt, to innovate, to find creative ways to achieve his goals.

Lilly: 9:33

Absolutely, and let's not forget his early work promoting tree equity in Wandsworth Right. He saw firsthand the stark difference in tree cover between wealthy and less affluent neighborhoods and he was determined to address that imbalance.

Jad: 9:47

He recognized that access to trees, to green space, is a matter of social justice. Absolutely it's about ensuring that everyone, regardless of their background or zip code, can enjoy the benefits that trees bring to our cities.

Lilly: 10:00

It's an issue that's still relevant today.

Jad: 10:02

Very much so.

Lilly: 10:03

And Mark was one of the first to really champion that cause.

Jad: 10:08

Yeah, he was a true pioneer, A visionary who saw the potential of trees to transform not just our landscapes but our communities as well.

Lilly: 10:17

For sure, for sure. And his work in Wandsworth was just the beginning. After a short and challenging stint at Kew Gardens, mark found himself at Avery Hill College diving into environmental studies.

Jad: 10:29

Yeah, it's like he was constantly pushing himself to learn more Right To expand his understanding of the natural world.

Lilly: 10:35

That drive to keep learning.

Jad: 10:37

Yeah.

Lilly: 10:37

So inspiring.

Jad: 10:38

He could have easily settled into a comfortable routine.

Lilly: 10:41

Right.

Jad: 10:41

But he was always looking for new challenges, new ways to contribute.

Lilly: 10:45

Exactly, and even when financial pressures kind of forced him back into work, he landed on his feet, teaching at Ascombrine College in Yorkshire.

Jad: 10:53

Quite a change from the hustle and bustle of London.

Lilly: 10:56

Yeah, it shows his adaptability, doesn't it?

Jad: 10:59

It does.

Lilly: 10:59

Embrace that change, throwing himself into teaching writing and advocating for community forestry.

Jad: 11:06

Yeah, his impact was growing, reaching beyond the classroom into the wider world.

Lilly: 11:11

Absolutely Speaking of impact. This is where his research really starts to take off.

Jad: 11:17

Yeah.

Lilly: 11:17

He publishes his first academic paper on urban trees and ecological landscape design a sign of things to come.

Jad: 11:25

It marked a turning point.

Lilly: 11:26

Right.

Jad: 11:26

He was bridging that gap between practical experience and academic research, adding his voice to those crucial conversations shaping the future of our field.

Lilly: 11:38

Absolutely. And he wasn't just writing for academics. Remember his groundbreaking paper on the sociological approach to urban forestry.

Jad: 11:44

He was a pioneer in bringing those social science perspectives into our world For sure, showing how crucial it is to understand that human element in urban tree management.

Lilly: 11:53

Absolutely. He was ahead of his time, recognizing that it's not just about the trees themselves, it's about the people, the communities those complex interactions between the natural and the built environments.

Jad: 12:06

And he wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty. Yeah, putting those ideas into action With green deserts. Yeah, they were organizing tree fairs. Uh-huh, promoting community forestry.

Lilly: 12:16

Right.

Jad: 12:16

Even dealing with curveballs, like the potential arrival of the peace convoy.

Lilly: 12:21

Remember those headlines.

Jad: 12:22

Oh yeah.

Lilly: 12:22

It shows how real world work often throws you a curveball.

Jad: 12:25

Right.

Lilly: 12:26

But Mark was always up for the challenge Adapting, yeah, finding those creative solutions.

Jad: 12:32

Yeah.

Lilly: 12:33

Never losing sight of his goals.

Jad: 12:35

And then there's his international work, teaching in Hong Kong.

Lilly: 12:38

Oh yeah.

Jad: 12:39

Connecting with arborists from all corners of the globe.

Lilly: 12:41

He was building bridges across continents, sharing his knowledge and passion for trees.

Jad: 12:46

Yeah, with the world.

Lilly: 12:47

Right, it speaks to the universal language of trees, doesn't it?

Jad: 12:50

It does.

Lilly: 12:50

No matter where you go, that connection with nature, the challenges and rewards of urban forestry, it resonates with people everywhere.

Jad: 13:00

And that trip to St Petersburg. Remember that.

Lilly: 13:02

Oh yeah.

Jad: 13:02

He was struck by the city's dedication to trees, even during wartime, visiting that Komarov Botanical Institute, walking those grand avenues lined with trees, learning how they preserved that green heritage through the siege of Leningrad.

Lilly: 13:18

Talk about resilience.

Jad: 13:20

Yeah.

Lilly: 13:20

It's a powerful reminder that even in the face of incredible hardship, people find solace and strength in nature.

Jad: 13:28

Yeah, those trees became Symbols of hope, of continuity, of the enduring human spirit.

Lilly: 13:34

For sure and remember that chance encounter with the Chinese professor whose supervisor actually discovered the Dawn Redwood.

Jad: 13:41

It's like our world. Is this interconnected web full of these fascinating connections and stories just waiting to be uncovered?

Lilly: 13:48

It's those unexpected encounters that often lead to the most valuable insights, don't they?

Jad: 13:53

They do. And speaking of connections, yeah. There's that meeting with Dick Abbott, leading figure in the American tree care industry. It's amazing how those relationships can shape a career Right, open doors to new possibilities.

Lilly: 14:06

Absolutely, and those connections would lead Mark, to some incredible experiences, like leading the Glasgow Urban Forestry Initiative yeah, like leading the Glasgow Urban Forestry Initiative, establishing the TreeWise organization, transforming derelict land into these thriving woodlands.

Jad: 14:20

They were providing training and jobs for disadvantaged youth. It shows how urban forestry can be such a powerful force for social change, creating opportunities, empowering communities, bringing people together around a shared passion for nature.

Lilly: 14:35

Absolutely. Then there's Belfast. Oh yeah, a city grappling with the troubles. Right Mark took on that Forest of Belfast project, navigating those incredibly complex political dynamics, building trust across communities, showcasing that healing power of trees.

Jad: 14:51

That took immense courage and sensitivity. It did.

Lilly: 14:53

That took immense courage and sensitivity it did. He had to be so mindful of every word, every action, recognizing that even the smallest gesture could be misinterpreted in such a charged environment.

Jad: 15:06

He even chose not to display a British Legion sticker on his car.

Lilly: 15:09

Right.

Jad: 15:10

Understanding the potential for even the smallest symbol to be divisive.

Lilly: 15:14

He was walking a tightrope, yeah, but he never lost sight of his mission to bring people together through a shared love of trees.

Jad: 15:21

It's a testament to his diplomatic skills and his deep belief in the unifying power of nature.

Lilly: 15:27

And he got things done securing funding, organizing events, bringing people from all sides of the conflict together.

Jad: 15:33

And he even managed to secure free PR services from Morrow Communications.

Lilly: 15:37

Talk about thinking outside the box.

Jad: 15:39

It's that kind of strategic thinking.

Lilly: 15:41

Yeah.

Jad: 15:41

That separates the good from the great.

Lilly: 15:43

He was a master at leveraging his network, building partnerships, finding creative solutions to overcome obstacles. It's a lesson we can all learn from Don't be afraid to reach out. Yeah, to build those relationships, to seek support from those who can help us achieve our goals.

Jad: 15:59

And he didn't shy away from the realities of the conflict either. Remember his story about the bomb explosion near his office.

Lilly: 16:05

Oh yeah, it was a stark reminder of the danger, the fear that permeated everyday life in Belfast.

Jad: 16:12

It shows his resilience Right, his commitment to his work.

Lilly: 16:16

Yeah.

Jad: 16:17

Even in the face of incredible adversity.

Lilly: 16:19

He didn't let those challenges paralyze him. He channeled his energy into creating those spaces of beauty, peace and hope.

Jad: 16:26

Yeah, after Belfast he returned to teaching at Myers-Goff College, sharing his vast experience, mentoring a new generation of arborists and continuing his research.

Lilly: 16:38

It was a time of reflection, of passing the torch, but also of new beginnings.

Jad: 16:43

It's amazing how his career kind of comes full circle.

Lilly: 16:45

Right.

Jad: 16:46

Returning to his roots in education.

Lilly: 16:47

Yeah, he was imparting not just knowledge but wisdom, shaping not just skills but mindsets.

Jad: 16:52

And he was still pushing boundaries leading the trees in Townes' the second research project.

Lilly: 16:57

Uh-huh, that was a landmark, study.

Jad: 16:59

Yeah, providing crucial data on local authority tree management practices.

Lilly: 17:02

And remember how the media kind of sensationalized those findings.

Jad: 17:07

Oh yeah.

Lilly: 17:07

They focused on the negative Right, but the real value was in the data, the insights it provided.

Jad: 17:15

Right. It's a reminder that sometimes the most important work doesn't grab the headline.

Lilly: 17:19

For sure, but for those of us in the field, that research was invaluable, helping us understand the challenges and opportunities facing urban forestry.

Jad: 17:27

Absolutely. And then there's the Trees, people and the Built Environment conferences he organized.

Lilly: 17:31

Yeah, he brought together academics, practitioners, people from all over the world to share their knowledge and chart a course for the future of urban forestry.

Jad: 17:39

He created a platform for collaboration, for that cross-pollination of ideas, recognizing that the biggest challenges require collective effort and shared knowledge.

Lilly: 17:49

And he even managed to secure a video message from Prince Charles for one of the conferences.

Jad: 17:55

I know that personal touch, that ability to inspire and rally support.

Lilly: 18:00

Yeah, it's, something special.

Jad: 18:01

Shows how his passion was contagious.

Lilly: 18:09

He had this way of bringing people together, motivating them to work towards a common goal. Even in retirement, he's focused on his passion for the history of arboriculture, publishing trees in towns and cities.

Jad: 18:16

Amazing resource for anyone interested in understanding the evolution of our field.

Lilly: 18:21

It's a fitting capstone to an extraordinary career. He's not content to rest on his laurels he's still exploring, researching, sharing his knowledge, ensuring that the lessons of the past inform the decisions of the future.

Jad: 18:34

Mark's journey is a testament to the power of passion, perseverance and a deep commitment to the well-being of trees and people.

Roger: 18:42

It is.

Jad: 18:42

He's shown us that arboriculture is more than just a job. It's a calling, a way of life. He's challenged us to think beyond the technical aspects of tree care, embrace those broader social, cultural and ecological dimensions of our work.

Lilly: 18:56

Absolutely, and he's reminded us that we're all part of something bigger. Yeah, a global community working towards a greener, healthier, more beautiful world.

Jad: 19:04

What a legacy.

Roger: 19:08

Thank you for joining us Today. We trace the life and career of Mark Johnston from his Scottish beginnings and English upbringing to his significant contributions in arboriculture and urban forestry across Britain, ireland, the USA and China. We explored his practical experiences, academic endeavors and engagement with key organizations in the field, along with reflections on the social and political dimensions of urban tree management. We appreciate your attention and look forward to our next discussion.