Roger: 0:02

Talking Trees with Lily and Jad. Welcome to Talking Trees, your guide into the dynamic world of arboriculture and tree climbing. In today's episode, we're focusing on tree climbing spurs. We'll explore a comprehensive overview from expert sources. We'll also examine discussions on the potential damage these spurs can inflict on trees. We'll also examine discussions on the potential damage these spurs can inflict on trees. Listen in as we consider the varied opinions from both arborists and climbers on acceptable levels of tree impact. Plus, we'll break down the different types of spurs available, their materials, lengths, gaffes and all the essential gear for a safe ascent. Join us as we delve into the tools and techniques that make safe tree climbing possible.

Jad: 0:49

Hey everyone, welcome back for another deep dive. You know we like to tackle the tough topics and I think we've got a good one today.

Lilly: 0:56

Oh yeah, this one gets people riled up for sure.

Jad: 1:01

We're talking climbing spurs, and you know, as arborists, I think it's a thing we all deal with on a pretty regular basis. Yeah, so are they a necessary evil, or are they just evil?

Lilly: 1:11

Right, or are they just bad?

Jad: 1:13

Yeah, and so we're going to dive into some sources. Today We've got a YouTube video from a climber who seems like he's been doing this for a while. He's got a lot of good information and then also a bunch of forum discussions. Just from you know, people in the industry weighing in on the whole spur debate.

Lilly: 1:29

Yeah, a lot of opinions out there.

Jad: 1:30

Yeah, so let's just jump right into it. Yeah, the YouTube guy. He kind of breaks down the anatomy of spurs and you know, you've got all the different parts, you know the upper pads and the shank and the lower straps, but the real star of the show is the gaff.

Lilly: 1:45

That's the business end.

Jad: 1:46

Yeah, that's the pokey part.

Lilly: 1:47

The pokey part. That's a very technical term.

Jad: 1:49

Yeah, so, and he talks about all the different types of gaffs too, like there's the tree gaff, the pole gaff and then some sort of like hybrid in between.

Lilly: 1:59

Yeah, you don't see those hybrids as much anymore, but they're out there.

Jad: 2:02

Yeah, and then, and then the materials too, like he talks about starting out with just basic steel and then moving up to aluminum, and it made me wonder, you know like do you think the material actually makes a difference in terms of impacting the tree?

Lilly: 2:15

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, I think a lot of people would assume layer material equals less damage with less force but I don't know if it's quite that simple. I think it probably has more to do with the sharpness and how it's actually used. Technique, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jad: 2:29

So then he has a whole section on boots, which I thought was kind of funny.

Lilly: 2:32

Oh yeah, the boot quest.

Jad: 2:33

Yeah, like it was like a whole like you know side quest to find the perfect boot and he uses Lyman boots for winter. He had a whole funny story about almost getting his foot run over by a chip truck but he does make a good point about the stiffness of the boot.

Lilly: 2:51

You know, and I think anyone who's climbed in spurs for a while can attest to that. Oh yeah, your feet will tell you how important that is.

Jad: 2:54

Oh yeah, big time. So then he does this, this goffing out demonstration, and I have to admit I was a little nervous watching this, like I thought it was going to be way more dramatic.

Lilly: 3:04

You were expecting a big fall.

Jad: 3:06

Yeah, I was expecting, like you know, some crazy stuff, and it wasn't really that bad.

Lilly: 3:10

Yeah, well, he's a pro.

Jad: 3:11

Yeah, but he does say you know, gaffing out is something that every climber should expect to happen at some point. Yeah, it's going to, it's not a matter of Exactly. And he does mention, you know, like three scenarios that make gaffing out like extra dangerous.

Lilly: 3:26

Oh, like what.

Jad: 3:27

So being near branches that you could hit on the way down, also not having secure footing, if you're like using a chainsaw- oh yeah, you don't want to be off balance with a chainsaw. No, no, no. And then like climbing those really like skinny slick trunks where you could just slide all the way down.

Lilly: 3:43

Oof. Yeah, that's a long way down.

Jad: 3:45

Yeah. So let's get into the big debate here, the spurs and tree health thing, because the forums were just like blowing up about that.

Lilly: 3:53

Oh yeah, that's a hot topic.

Jad: 3:54

Yeah. So you know, there's the common argument, right? Yeah, spikes equals damage to the cambium, which then leads to disease, and you know, ultimately dead trees, right? That's kind of the the simplified version, yeah. And then you have people like this one guy flinging arrows I think was his name, and he was saying that he's been spurring the crap out of this poplar for years and it's totally fine.

Lilly: 4:17

Really.

Jad: 4:18

Yeah, and there were others saying similar things. You know, like they've been climbing the same trees for years with no noticeable damage.

Lilly: 4:24

Hmm, Well, you know, anecdotal evidence can be tricky. It's like are they looking for damage or are they just waiting for the tree to fall over?

Jad: 4:31

Right, Like what are they actually noticing?

Lilly: 4:32

Exactly, and it makes you wonder too, like what species are we talking about here?

Jad: 4:36

You know Right, are they all oaks or are they? You know something more sensitive?

Lilly: 4:40

Yeah, and how often are they actually climbing these trees too? That's true, you know, once a year is a lot different than every other week.

Jad: 4:46

Yeah for sure. And then you've got this guy WHW. He says he's been climbing for 45 years using spurs and he's only seen one questionable death that he thinks could be linked to spurs. He even mentions this property with all these oaks that have been repeatedly climbed with spurs over the years and they're all still thriving, producing acorns like crazy.

Lilly: 5:08

Interesting.

Jad: 5:09

Yeah, and then a bunch of people were bringing up the point that pruning cuts are actually bigger than spur holes.

Lilly: 5:15

Oh yeah, you hear that a lot.

Jad: 5:16

Yeah, and trees generally recover from those, just fine.

Lilly: 5:19

That's true.

Jad: 5:20

So what's the deal with that?

Lilly: 5:22

Oh, I think it's important to remember that a pruning cut is made with a sharp tool, right At a specific location and in a way that's designed to help the tree heal.

Jad: 5:31

So it's not just about the size of the wound.

Lilly: 5:35

Exactly.

Jad: 5:35

It's about the type of wound and how it's made. So are you saying that like a pruning cut might seem bigger on the surface, but it's actually less damaging in the long run?

Lilly: 5:41

Yeah, that's what the research suggests.

Jad: 5:43

Wow, this is complicated.

Lilly: 5:44

It is. It's a lot more nuanced than people think, and it's not just about you know one single wound either. It's about the cumulative effect.

Jad: 5:52

Over time, yeah.

Lilly: 5:53

Yeah, like a death by a thousand cuts.

Jad: 5:55

Oh, that's a good one.

Lilly: 5:56

Right. Each individual wound might not be a big deal, but over time all those little injuries can add up.

Jad: 6:02

Especially if the tree's already stressed.

Lilly: 6:03

Right, exactly, you know drought, soil compaction pests.

Jad: 6:06

Yeah, all that stuff.

Lilly: 6:08

It can all make a tree more susceptible to problems, and that's where, you know, minimizing spur use, even on those thicker bark species, comes in Right. I mean, a mature oak might be able to handle a few spur holes, but why risk it if there's a safer way to get up there?

Jad: 6:24

Yeah, good point, and our YouTube guy. He talks about, you know, placing the spurs between the furrows of the bark.

Lilly: 6:31

Oh yeah, that's a good technique.

Jad: 6:32

Yeah, where it's less likely to penetrate the cambium.

Lilly: 6:35

It's all about minimizing that damage, you know yeah being intentional, exactly damage, you know being intentional exactly.

Jad: 6:44

He also says sharper spurs are less likely to cause gaff outs. Oh, that makes sense.

Lilly: 6:46

Yeah, sharper gaff bites into the wood more cleanly holds, more securely yeah, and that's why keeping your spurs sharp is so important oh yeah, maintenance yeah, dull spurs are more likely to slip and that it can damage the tree, and it's dangerous for the climber too.

Jad: 6:58

Oh, yeah, you don't be slipping around up there no, no, you don't. He had a whole thing about not walking on pavement with your spurs on, especially the lighter materials like the carbon fiber.

Lilly: 7:08

Oh yeah, those can get dinged up pretty easily.

Jad: 7:10

Yeah, and then that affects their performance in the tree.

Lilly: 7:12

Yeah, exactly.

Jad: 7:14

Makes sense. And then gaff guards too.

Lilly: 7:16

Oh yeah, those are a good idea.

Jad: 7:17

Yeah, those are a good idea. Yeah, protect your spurs and protect everything else that you might bump into.

Lilly: 7:20

Oh right, your truck, your shins.

Jad: 7:22

Yeah, exactly, safety first.

Lilly: 7:24

Always.

Jad: 7:25

You know, going through all this stuff, it really makes you think about how important it is to stay up to date on best practices. Yeah, we need to move beyond the anecdotes and the gut feelings.

Lilly: 7:36

Right and really look at the science.

Jad: 7:38

Yeah, and, you know, maybe even have some tough conversations with clients who are like no, I want you to use spurs.

Lilly: 7:43

Yeah, sometimes you got to educate the client.

Jad: 7:46

Yeah, because, at the end of the day, our reputation as arborists depends on our ability to balance, you know, efficiency with tree health.

Lilly: 7:55

Absolutely. We can't sacrifice one for the other.

Jad: 7:57

And I think that's one thing that really came out of those forum discussions was that tension between you know the old school guys who've been using spurs forever, and then you know the newer generation that's more focused on tree preservation.

Lilly: 8:08

Yeah, there's definitely some pushback against this idea that spurs are inherently bad.

Jad: 8:14

Yeah, and to be fair, you know there are skilled climbers who've been using spurs for decades without you know seeing massive tree die off.

Lilly: 8:23

Right, but that doesn't mean there isn't an impact.

Jad: 8:26

It's that whole correlation versus causation thing.

Lilly: 8:28

Exactly.

Jad: 8:29

You know, we can't say for sure that spurs are killing trees, but we also can't ignore the potential for harm.

Lilly: 8:36

Right, and that's where the idea of cumulative stress comes back in. Yeah, one spur hole might not be a problem for a healthy tree, but if that tree is already stressed from other factors?

Jad: 8:46

Right, it could be the tipping point.

Lilly: 8:48

Yeah, exactly, it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Jad: 8:51

So we really need to consider the big picture, you know the whole tree the whole site the whole lifespan of the tree. Yeah, and make decisions based on all of that information.

Lilly: 9:01

Not just on. You know whether or not we want to get up there quickly.

Jad: 9:04

Right Efficiency isn't everything.

Lilly: 9:06

You know, don't be afraid to challenge the status quo.

Jad: 9:08

Right, keep learning, keep asking questions.

Lilly: 9:11

Exactly and be willing to change your practices as new information emerges.

Jad: 9:16

Because, at the end of the day, it's all about doing what's best for the tree.

Lilly: 9:19

Absolutely. That's our job as arborists to be advocates for the trees.

Jad: 9:23

And I think that's a great place to wrap things up.

Lilly: 9:25

Yeah, thanks for joining us on the Deep Dive.

Jad: 9:27

And keep climbing.

Roger: 9:32

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Talking Trees. Today we unraveled the essentials of tree climbing spurs, from understanding what they are and how to choose the right ones, to mastering safe techniques and navigating potential tree damage. We've delved into expert insights on proper usage, the nuances of materials and lengths, and the ongoing dialogue among arborists and climbers about maintaining tree health. We hope these insights inspire safe and informed practices in your own tree climbing adventures. Until next time, keep reaching for new heights and nurturing our green spaces.